Doug Belshaw's Open Educational Thinkering - Latest Comments in I am Spart-arthus!

Re: I am Spart-arthus!

Tracy Rosen — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:53:47 -0000

You are correct, the post itself and the questioning of roles within a defined space of learning is quite appropriate, perhaps even necessary.

It is the ensuing argument, spanning over 70 comments, that I am referring to.

You can call it a questioning, it reads like an argument.

Re: I am Spart-arthus!

Tracy Rosen — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 06:53:47 -0000

You are correct, the post itself and the questioning of roles within a defined space of learning is quite appropriate, perhaps even necessary.

It is the ensuing argument, spanning over 70 comments, that I am referring to.
You can call it a questioning, it reads like an argument.

Re: I am Spart-arthus!

Doug Belshaw — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 06:09:05 -0000

It's 'appropriate', Tracy, because it's *not* an argument with a
student. It's a questioning of the *role* of students in the

edublogosphere. Arthus is just an example I used.

Re: I am Spart-arthus!

Tracy Rosen — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 04:11:59 -0000

umm...one of the most important lessons I learned early on in my teaching career was not to get involved in arguments with students.

Reading through this post and its comments I am amazed at this public argument between teacher and student.

You mention, "appropriate responses and participation" in your first comment, Doug. Help me to understand how it is appropriate to engage in public argument with a student? I read through all of the comments so far, and I don't understand it yet.

Re: I am Spart-arthus!

Doug Belshaw — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 01:09:05 -0000

It's 'appropriate', Tracy, because it's *not* an argument with a
student. It's a questioning of the *role* of students in the
edublogosphere. Arthus is just an example I used.

Re: I am Spart-arthus!

Tracy Rosen — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 23:11:59 -0000

Re: I am Spart-arthus!

Doug Belshaw — Sun, 20 Jul 2008 08:28:06 -0000

And as for saying this is not about Arthus... have you checked the title of this post? Or was that just an attempt at a clever pun?

Yep, I was using Arthus as an example of a token of a particular type. It's like in your classroom when you give your students a concrete example. Trouble is, everyone's focusing on the example rather than the point I'm making behind it about students (in general) in the edublogosphere...

Your diatribe has certainly lowered my opinion of your sense of justice.

Oh dear. Glass houses and stones spring to mind:

http://betch.edublogs.org/2008/06/05/enough-exc...

Is it intelligence? Maybe some people are just too stupid to use a computer. Maybe some people really are incapable of learning this stuff? Aptitude has something to do with I'm sure, but that only explains why some people might pick technology skills up quicker than others? it doesn't explain why some don't seem to be able to pick it up at all. Especially when you see the basic, basic stuff that seems to confuse some people? I mean jeez, how hard is it to make a frickin' folder and save something in it? Trained monkeys could do that. If people are too stupid to learn basic, low level operational skills,

then maybe they are too stupid to teach.

I'll leave it to other readers to comment on *that*.

Re: I am Spart-arthus!

Chris Betcher — Sun, 20 Jul 2008 04:38:21 -0000

I work with a fellow (My Director of IT) who is an active member of the Web 2 world, but NEVER uses his real name anywhere. He simply chooses not to. That doesn't make his contributions worth any less. He simply chooses not to. I myself usually show in most places as "betchaboy", not because I'm afraid to use my own name, but because rather like to have a nickname.
Your comments seem to be almost fanatically focusses on this obsession with him being called "Arthus"... who cares? Arthus has never been misleading about who and what he is, we have all known for a very long time that he is a student, he is 14 (or was when he "emerged") and he is from Vermont. What more do you need to know? He's not mislead you at any point. He's never pretended to be anything other than what he is. I can understand why he might want to try again and this time appear as an adult... to see if the intellectual quality of his thinking holds up when people see him as a peer and aren't compensating - positively or negatively - for his age.

I think your arguments are coming across as unbalanced and unfair Doug. And as for saying this is not about Arthus... have you checked the title of this post? Or was that just an attempt at a clever pun? Either way, it pretty clearly is aimed at one particular student blogger... the one in the title and the only one you've mentioned by name. If it's just general student bloggers that have you so troubled, how about naming a few more so we can see who else you are troubled by? Or can't you think of too many others?

Your diatribe has certainly lowered my opinion of your sense of justice.

Chris Betcher

Re: I am Spart-arthus!

Doug Belshaw — Sun, 20 Jul 2008 03:28:06 -0000

And as for saying this is not about Arthus... have you checked the title of this post? Or was that just an attempt at a clever pun?

Your diatribe has certainly lowered my opinion of your sense of justice.

Oh dear. Glass houses and stones spring to mind:

http://betch.edublogs.org/2008/06/05/enough-exc.....

Is it intelligence? Maybe some people are just too stupid to use a computer. Maybe some people really are incapable of learning this stuff? Aptitude has something to do with I'm sure, but that only explains why some people might pick technology skills up quicker than others? it doesn't explain why some don't seem to be able to pick it up at all. Especially when you see the basic, basic stuff that seems to confuse some people? I mean jeez, how hard is it to make a frickin' folder and save something in it? Trained monkeys could do that. If people are too stupid to learn basic, low level operational skills,
then maybe they are too stupid to teach.

I'll leave it to other readers to comment on *that*.

Re: I am Spart-arthus!

Chris Betcher — Sat, 19 Jul 2008 23:38:21 -0000

I work with a fellow (My Director of IT) who is an active member of the Web 2 world, but NEVER uses his real name anywhere. He simply chooses not to. That doesn't make his contributions worth any less. He simply chooses not to. I myself usually show in most places as "betchaboy", not because I'm afraid to use my own name, but because rather like to have a nickname.
Your comments seem to be almost fanatically focusses on this obsession with him being called "Arthus"... who cares? Arthus has never been misleading about who and what he is, we have all known for a very long time that he is a student, he is 14 (or was when he "emerged") and he is from Vermont. What more do you need to know? He's not mislead you at any point. He's never pretended to be anything other than what he is. I can understand why he might want to try again and this time appear as an adult... to see if the intellectual quality of his thinking holds up when people see him as a peer and aren't compensating - positively or negatively - for his age.
I think your arguments are coming across as unbalanced and unfair Doug. And as for saying this is not about Arthus... have you checked the title of this post? Or was that just an attempt at a clever pun? Either way, it pretty clearly is aimed at one particular student blogger... the one in the title and the only one you've mentioned by name. If it's just general student bloggers that have you so troubled, how about naming a few more so we can see who else you are troubled by? Or can't you think of too many others?
Your diatribe has certainly lowered my opinion of your sense of justice.
Chris Betcher

Re: I am Spart-arthus!

Doug Belshaw — Wed, 16 Jul 2008 07:45:43 -0000

interesting to note this is the exact same kind of laziness you engaged in by not reading *my* about page.

Touché! Perhaps it's because I call my about page 'About' whereas you call it 'Colophoning'... ;-)

The *only* reason I don't share my real name publicly is because I don't want the reverse: people from real life being able to Google my name and find all of this stuff.

The fact that you want to separate your offline and online worlds lends support to my argument that you - and anyone else who remains anonymous in the edublogosphere - lacks accountability and transparency. I, for one, don't want to discuss the future of education with such people.

Re: I am Spart-arthus!

Arthus — Wed, 16 Jul 2008 03:44:33 -0000

You mention I must be '30-something' and that you're not too sure whether I have children or not. How about trying my 'About' page? That shows I'm 27, studying towards an Ed.D., am married and have a 17-month old son. I was commenting about what I would and would not let *him* do if he were that age.

interesting to note this is the exact same kind of laziness you engaged in by not reading *my* about page.

And yes, for the record, I *do* remember being 15. I remember registering with Compuserve with my Dad's credit card, making sure Internet calls were less than 60 mins so they didn't show up on the phone bill, and cancelling the Compuserve account after less than 30 days so it didn't show up on his credit card bill. But if he'd found out I'd fully have expected him to go ballistic. That's the difference.

Saying (and therefore stereoyping) teenagers as 'being a certain way' does them a disservice. That's what people are trying to do with Arthus, after all!

You are the one stereotyping teenagers as somehow being too immature and useless to engage in an adult conversation. We don't all steal credit cards you know...

Unfortunately, society encourages this kind of stereoptyping and assumptions. I can't count how many times I have had a store owner follow me around just to make sure I didn't shoplift anything or cause destruction, just because I am a teenager. (Funnily enough, I bet I make more per hour than him, thus being much less likely to steal.)

I wasn't actually *pushing* Arthus to reveal his 'real identity' - just pointing out the incongruity of revealing pretty much everything else and thinking that by hiding his name that somehow makes for good practice. I was shocked when he responded by video - I felt he'd completely missed the point. :-(

Once again, you miss the point of why I keep my real name secret. I would be absolutely fine with everyone in the edublogosphere knowing who I really was. That's why I am perfectly willing to share my photo or video. In fact, I'm willing to tell people my name in a non-public forum if they want it. The *only* reason I don't share my real name publicly is because I don't want the reverse: people from real life being able to Google my name and find all of this stuff. Why? Let's just say teachers can get rather tough with the grading pen when you are pointing out problems of theirs.

I'm not entirely sure what point you're trying to make with your 'reference to sources' paragraph. However, as E-Learning Staff Tutor next year I'll certainly be trying to instill good practices in both staff and students. That, to me, is part of 'digital literacy' and something I'll be discussing in my Ed.D. thesis. :-)

Knowing to cite sources doesn't require advanced academic degrees, which I think we agree on. I can do it just as well as you (and do, when appropriate and needed).

Re: I am Spart-arthus!

Doug Belshaw — Wed, 16 Jul 2008 02:45:43 -0000

interesting to note this is the exact same kind of laziness you engaged in by not reading *my* about page.

Touché! Perhaps it's because I call my about page 'About' whereas you call it 'Colophoning'... ;-)

The *only* reason I don't share my real name publicly is because I don't want the reverse: people from real life being able to Google my name and find all of this stuff.

Re: I am Spart-arthus!

Arthus — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 22:44:33 -0000

You mention I must be '30-something' and that you're not too sure whether I have children or not. How about trying my 'About' page? That shows I'm 27, studying towards an Ed.D., am married and have a 17-month old son. I was commenting about what I would and would not let *him* do if he were that age.

interesting to note this is the exact same kind of laziness you engaged in by not reading *my* about page.

And yes, for the record, I *do* remember being 15. I remember registering with Compuserve with my Dad's credit card, making sure Internet calls were less than 60 mins so they didn't show up on the phone bill, and cancelling the Compuserve account after less than 30 days so it didn't show up on his credit card bill. But if he'd found out I'd fully have expected him to go ballistic. That's the difference.

Saying (and therefore stereoyping) teenagers as 'being a certain way' does them a disservice. That's what people are trying to do with Arthus, after all!

You are the one stereotyping teenagers as somehow being too immature and useless to engage in an adult conversation. We don't all steal credit cards you know...

Unfortunately, society encourages this kind of stereoptyping and assumptions. I can't count how many times I have had a store owner follow me around just to make sure I didn't shoplift anything or cause destruction, just because I am a teenager. (Funnily enough, I bet I make more per hour than him, thus being much less likely to steal.)

I wasn't actually *pushing* Arthus to reveal his 'real identity' - just pointing out the incongruity of revealing pretty much everything else and thinking that by hiding his name that somehow makes for good practice. I was shocked when he responded by video - I felt he'd completely missed the point. :-(

I'm not entirely sure what point you're trying to make with your 'reference to sources' paragraph. However, as E-Learning Staff Tutor next year I'll certainly be trying to instill good practices in both staff and students. That, to me, is part of 'digital literacy' and something I'll be discussing in my Ed.D. thesis. :-)

Knowing to cite sources doesn't require advanced academic degrees, which I think we agree on. I can do it just as well as you (and do, when appropriate and needed).

Re: I am Spart-arthus!

Doug Belshaw — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 20:25:16 -0000

I find your comment a bit random and meandering, but I'll try to respond and reply to some of the points I *think* you're making:

1. The very point that you don't give your name and post anonymously means I can't put what you say in context. Are you a teacher? student? nothing to do with education?

2. You've called me 'pathetic', 'childish' and 'inflammatory'. Fine, but so long as you know you're engaging in exactly the same kind of attack of which you're accusing me...

3. You say that I "have enough of a web presence that [I] *should* know better." Do you mean by that statement that I should agree with the majority view? Or that there should be certain standards. If it's the former, then I disagree profoundly; if the latter then you're agreeing with me up to a point about appropriateness, etc.

4. You mention I must be '30-something' and that you're not too sure whether I have children or not. How about trying my 'About' page? That shows I'm 27, studying towards an Ed.D., am married and have a 17-month old son. I was commenting about what I would and would not let *him* do if he were that age.

And yes, for the record, I *do* remember being 15. I remember registering with Compuserve with my Dad's credit card, making sure Internet calls were less than 60 mins so they didn't show up on the phone bill, and cancelling the Compuserve account after less than 30 days so it didn't show up on his credit card bill. But if he'd found out I'd fully have expected him to go ballistic. That's the difference.

Saying (and therefore stereoyping) teenagers as 'being a certain way' does them a disservice. That's what people are trying to do with Arthus, after all!

5. I wasn't actually *pushing* Arthus to reveal his 'real identity' - just pointing out the incongruity of revealing pretty much everything else and thinking that by hiding his name that somehow makes for good practice. I was shocked when he responded by video - I felt he'd completely missed the point. :-(

6. I'm not entirely sure what point you're trying to make with your 'reference to sources' paragraph. However, as E-Learning Staff Tutor next year I'll certainly be trying to instill good practices in both staff and students. That, to me, is part of 'digital literacy' and something I'll be discussing in my Ed.D. thesis. :-)

Re: I am Spart-arthus!

AnonNymous AvecPlaisir — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 18:31:54 -0000

At 65 comments after... not that many days, I am sure one more will not make a difference. However, this post has been on my mind for a few days now, and I can't not comment. I profoundly disagree with the post, I find it arrogant, baiting, and unjustified. It's immature, inflammatory, and narrow-minded. I personally would not engage in this level of personal attack with someone who is NOT on the same level with me, in such a public forum. In this case, though, I feel that, based on your continued defence of your initial post, you don't see how inappropriate it is. It's pathetic. It's uncalled for. It's childish. I have read through most of the comments, and I am AMAZED at how careful and measured peoples words are. I am incredulous at the fact that people are not more critical of the fact that you are, essentially, baiting and bashing a student who is likely half your age (I think I read that you are 30, ish, or thereabouts. Not that it really matters - this kind of pettiness is uncool at ANY age).

Regardless of the precipating comments or events, calling out someone personally is pretty harsh, calling out a youth/ child/ student /anyone who has significantly less power than you do is ... pathetic. I am probably harsher than most of your commenters, but, seriously people, Arthus is a kid (sorry Arthus, but, you are). Even if it turns out he is a *fake* kid, it doesn't matter. Even if he is personally attacking you, to a point, there are ways to deal with this without directly naming or involving the person (see Clay Burrell's respectful comments about a post that didn't sit well with him - perhaps he's referencing posts like this one!). If the person who is attacking you is wrong, and totally out to lunch, people will probably realise this and their popularity will decrease. Eventually.

The sad thing is, you have some interesting comments to make with this post. While I disagree with much of what you are saying, it is a thought provoking post. A real discussion starter. However, this post could have been just as effective without the below-the-belt tactics. Instead of a thoughtful examination of a particular issue, it comes across as a personal attack, getting it out there that you have an axe to grind. However, you are old enough to know better. You have enough of a web presence that you *should* know better. I find the arrogance of some edubloggers incredibly unhealthy, and quite a bit of it is herd-following and posturing. It's like academia, but without the requisite qualifications. Why is the edublogosphere so sacrosanct that people need to live up to a standard of ultimate honesty and transparency? It's. The. Internet. I don't *need* to be anything. I am not necessarily in this for ego, nor am I necessarily in it to become the 'voice' of Web ?.0. I can create an identity, and be authentic to that identity, and have it represent a certain aspect of my life. I do not need to live out my life online, and do not necessarily want to. (btw, calling out Arthus on his *real* identity, pushing him to reveal more personal details about himself.... seriously? Do you deal with students? Do you discuss internet safety? Do you not have any concern for your own personal (identity) safety? Who does that?! That's manic! Ridiculous! Over the top! Irresponsible!).

I can't be rational in response to your post, and the comments, and your responses to the comments, because they are not rational. Talking about how your (future?) children won't be acting like Arthus online... (insert Scooby Doo confused noise here) Really? So now you are predicting the future? Becoming the overseer of your future 15 year olds? Good luck with that. Really. Were you not 15 once?

The post itself was not in the best taste... I feel it was a bad judgement call, but, that is my personal opinion. There is a larger, underlying issue that this post, and the ensuing comments skirt, and that is the issue of educating people about engaging with online sources. The point is, that students are online. Adults are online. Lots of people online have opinions. Departments, institutions, individuals, students all need to be taught how to evaluate resources. What should they be looking for? How can they discern between good information and bad information? How do they know when a source can be useful, but might not have enough authority to be credible on its own -- for example, a student blog from an erudite writer, or the blog of a doctoral candidate and practioner? Neither of these are necessary authoratative sources, however, if one is able to triangulate their data and find other sources (ie. numerous first-person accounts, research, peer-reviewed publications that are industry-standard), than, these voices can be supported, and may turn out to provide reliable insights. Or not. People need to be continuously informed that a blog does not an expert make. An innovator is not necessarily a leader. A bright light does not necessarily have all the answers. We are all learning, and, with the rate of change, we need to constantly redefine how we use and interpret information, as well as the sources of that information. The internet can allow us to be lazy, if we let it. I think you were alluding to this when you mentioned techers trotting out Arthus as a way of looking like they are 'in the know'. Would it be better if they referenced Stephen Downes? No. Both are symptomatic of our propensity to latch on to what is latest and greatest, obvious, or top of the google search pile.

I am probably not a 'fully paid-up member' of whatever adult discussion circles you are hanging out in, and that's okay with me. I have been integrating tech tools since I was Arthus's age, training my teachers and others, going through a special program in my undergrad and did my grad studies in Ed Tech, but that doens't necessarily mean I am professional or I have a relevant point of view. I am sure glad that I never encountered this kind of arrogance and dismissiveness when I was his age.

Respectfully,

Anonyme

Re: I am Spart-arthus!

Doug Belshaw — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 15:25:16 -0000

Re: I am Spart-arthus!

AnonNymous AvecPlais — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 13:31:54 -0000

Re: I am Spart-arthus!

antjessop — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 16:52:16 -0000

Yeah, you're right. I still don't think empathy necessarily goes hand in hand with academic achievement, but I think you're right about academically understanding the view of others.

Re: I am Spart-arthus!

Doug Belshaw — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 16:25:35 -0000

No, that's not what I said. Let me explain in bite-size chunks:

Comprehension = low-level skill

Thinking = higher level skill

Thinking therefore involves engaging one's intelligence, whereas comprehension does so to a much lesser degree (more to do with literacy).

That clear things up? :-)

Re: I am Spart-arthus!

Doug Belshaw — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 16:24:12 -0000

Interpersonal (social) skills are different from those of empathy and (academically) understanding the views of others though, surely?

Re: I am Spart-arthus!

antjessop — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 11:52:16 -0000

Yeah, you're right. I still don't think empathy necessarily goes hand in hand with academic achievement, but I think you're right about academically understanding the view of others.

Re: I am Spart-arthus!

Doug Belshaw — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 11:25:35 -0000

No, that's not what I said. Let me explain in bite-size chunks:

Comprehension = low-level skill
Thinking = higher level skill

Thinking therefore involves engaging one's intelligence, whereas comprehension does so to a much lesser degree (more to do with literacy).

That clear things up? :-)

Re: I am Spart-arthus!

Doug Belshaw — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 11:24:12 -0000

Interpersonal (social) skills are different from those of empathy and (academically) understanding the views of others though, surely?

Re: I am Spart-arthus!

Arthus — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 11:16:40 -0000

Wait, so now *thinking* doesn't have to do with intelligence? Give me a break.